Poachers get thiers

[ConcinusMan]

Glad to hear it! I think perhaps they realized how much money they could make on these herps that they were finding, and got greedy. Glad they got busted. It brings up a question though. My last pair of concinnus were WC, individually, at different locales. Technically, keeping these wild snakes in WA is illegal, since they are wildlife. Fish and game knew i had them, but allowed me to go ahead and keep them, I think, in part because I let them in without a warrant, cooperated, and agreed they should take my rubber boa. So the question is, would selling the CB concinnus offspring, say, over the internet, for a song, shipping them to various places around the world, be illegal? Would that be the same crime? I'm not sure. I only collected a pair, but produced around 170 offspring in their time with me. I mean, concinnus eventually made it into the pet trade some how. If not like I suggested, then how?

[snakeman]

Garters are a pretty common snake.I don't see Personal collecting as being bad.Even with say spotted turtles.But when you raid dens or your selling 30 adult turtles for 50 dollars a pop thats when something is wrong.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Garters are a pretty common snake.I don't see Personal collecting as being bad.Even with say spotted turtles.But when you raid dens or your selling 30 adult turtles for 50 dollars a pop thats when something is wrong.

/agreed!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

My last pair of concinnus were WC, individually, at different locales. Technically, keeping these wild snakes in WA is illegal, since they are wildlife. Fish and game knew i had them, but allowed me to go ahead and keep them, I think, in part because I let them in without a warrant, cooperated, and agreed they should take my rubber boa. So the question is, would selling the CB concinnus offspring, say, over the internet, for a song, shipping them to various places around the world, be illegal? Would that be the same crime? I'm not sure. I only collected a pair, but produced around 170 offspring in their time with me. I mean, concinnus eventually made it into the pet trade some how. If not like I suggested, then how?

If it is illegal to possess native snakes (in this case WA), then I am pretty sure it would be illegal to export them out of state. Here in CA we have pretty stiff rules (but at least you can collect some); you are only allowed to possess the bag limit stated in the CA Dept Fish and Game Freshwater Guide; most amphibians are limited to 4, most lizards and snakes are limited at 2 with a few exceptions - you can only have 1 zonata (So Cal populations are protected); you can have 4 CA Kings and 4 Gophers, but you need a breeding permit to sell them (other than rosys which may have new restrictions, kings and gophers are the only snakes you are allowed to sell or export; legally, every one of these snakes sold in CA pet shops should come with an inventory number, but it's rarely enforced). You are only allowed 2 specimens of each species of garter (this ct. includes ssp.)... I could ramble on, but you can see for yourself (links below).
As for how certain snakes got into the trade, well, I am pretty sure their ancestors came from wild stock at some point in time. Whether or not it was done legally, that's the question. I suspect both.

Some of us have strong ethics where conservation is concerned and adhere to the rules, some say "a few extra won't hurt!", and then there's the unfortunate "Bag 'em all! We'll make a bundle!" I try to stick to the law because: 1. If I get caught over the limit, those animals may face destruction; 2. I run a herp website that boasts conservation ethics, and I would like my actions to reflect my words; and 3. Even though some of the laws or limits may seem strange, at least they are there with good intent (Oh, yeah! And fine collections.. Ka-ching! but that doesn't support what I'm getting at...)

Anyways, yeah, uh... Check out some of the red tape we got in CA (bag limits and special permits).

Hunting and Sport Fishing Regulations

Miscellaneous Licenses and Permits, fee schedule

Oh, also, out of state shipments, if done illegally, might incur bigger fines than simply harboring a few animals illegally.

May all be mindful in these matters.

[ConcinusMan]

Nice. I only wish it was that easy to find cut-and-dry specific rules for WA state. It's tough. I challenge anyone to find such specific rules for WA. Bottom line is, they dig up the very obscure laws and enforce them, when it suits their purpose. They chose not to enforce the "no wildlife as pets" rule because I had concinnus, an extremely common garter snake. But then again, there was no evidence that I was breeding and/or selling the offspring, because at the time, I had no neonates, and I have never sold any that I did produce. They were all released into the area where I found the female. They didn't know that, they just new I had a few garter snakes and they were ok with that, even though it is against written law.

You're lucky. When I lived in San Diego, county rules were much more stiff than state rules. No herps native to the county, period. As a pet, or otherwise. I had a CB king at the time, and had moved to San Diego. I fought it and was able to keep him because I proved he was CB and legally purchased in another state. The county backed off and let me have her under state rules. Also, no collecting, (no such thing as a bag limit) at all in that county. I've tried numerous times to get rules/laws for WA so I could find out exactly what is allowed and what isn't. They really aren't very forthcoming. They wait for a complaint and then enforce the laws as they see fit. They don't want me to know the laws. Seriously.

When I say "as they see fit" I mean, they let me keep a native wild snake, concinnus., while at the same time, they confiscated my rubber boa. (I agree with that. They are considered threatened, whereas the garter is not) I got away with raising a squirrel and had it as a pet, because technically, it wasn't native. It was an eastern grey squirrel. Very common wildlife around here, but not native.

Here in WA, I got gray tape. Don't really know what the laws are, and they can choose when, and if to enforce any of them, at any time. It's confusing as hello.

[confused]

Well, according to the language in the bill, yo uguys seem to have banned the ownership of all snakes.

[confused]

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/bil...re/1418.PL.pdf

[ConcinusMan]

That's just a bill, it is only a bill, and it's waiting there on...

Didn't bother to read it. There's still snakes in the pet stores. Corn morphs, milks, kings, ball pythons, etc. Believe me, if we had been banned from owning all snakes, I would have heard about it. I believe it only pertains to "potentially dangerous" animals. I don't think it's coincidence that our local pet stores no longer carry anacondas, Burmese pythons, or bird eating giant tarantulas. They used to. Not long ago. Kids were getting eaten, adults getting seriously bit, etc.

[justme]

I have a female T. Apophysis and am happy not to see them commonly offered in pet stores as most are wild caught and sickly. Bird eating tarantulas (Theraphosa Blondi) are intimidating due to their size but are fairly harmless and more prone to flicking urticating hairs than biting. Old world species are the ones to worry about as their venom is much more potent. ;-) And the severity of a possible allergic reaction to the venom varies with each individual. Personally, I am much more scared of centipedes than being a snack for a giant anaconda! Hehe... ;-)

[ConcinusMan]

About the box turtles: makes me wonder where ours come from. Twice I have found box turtles wandering our streets. I found one crossing my own street. Another time, my sister in law found one living in a burrow under a grape vine in her back yard. Just east of my location numerous individuals can be found near a lake. They're neat, and even knowing they aren't native, I released the one I found after keeping him for 6 months. They seem to do just fine here, in the wild.