T. s. tetrataenia or T. s. infernalis???

[ConcinusMan]

Ahh, I get it now. I thought a hybrid was different species- and may be sterile; and an intergrade was of sub-species and would have fertile offspring. Didn't take the human factor into account.

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

That's what I thought. Not too many people.

[Stefan-A]

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Why insist on using that term intentionally incorrectly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergradation

[prattypus]

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

That's what I thought. Not too many people.

Wait- garter snakes aren't mammals? I know you mean well, but sometimes you come off quite arrogant. And are mules the only hybrids that are sterile? I thought Ligers were too?

[Stefan-A]

Wait- garter snakes aren't mammals? I know you mean well, but sometimes you come off quite arrogant. And are mules the only hybrids that are sterile? I thought Ligers were too?

The fertility of hybrids span the whole spectrum, from zero to greater than either of the parent species. It's true, though, that snakes often do produce fertile offspring, even when you cross genera.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

anybody who would be up for trying that, would be a novice or inexperienced keeper that's not a true garter snake hobbyist and has no idea that they even have two totally different animals. Trust me, there are plenty of people out there right now who, if they had both of those animals, they would try it. I actually read on some guys website a while ago that he was attempting to breed albino checkered garters to blue pugets. Some others here may remember that. And those aren't even the same species!!! Believe me... vending at shows with my animals, I have seen it all! A lot of people, even in our own hobby, seem to think that garter snakes are all the same exact snake. They get all bent out of shape over a cornsnake that may possibly have emory rat in it (creamsicle and rootbeer corns are not actually corns and have tainted many cornsnake lines) but they come up to my table and suggest I cross my infernalis with with my eastern blackneck "to see if you get any new morphs"... were the exact words. I'm like hey people, these are not morphs these are naturally occuring species!

and I for one, would still call that a hybrid. Because it was intentional... and in captivity. intergradation is defined is it occuring between two populations in nature. I would be tempted to step on it's head, but I could never kill a snake that was not gravely ill or wounded.... so I would probably buy the thing and wall it off in it's own container so that it could live it's life, but never breed.