Post pics of your anery red sideds?

[BUSHSNAKE]

you wanna go over the genitics with me Scott...come on lets go...but first let me point out the similarities...black bellies, white chins, whitish to greyish pattern(same with sirtalis sirtalis, we've seen it), both created snows, you put em next to normals and they look black and not all melanistics have to look the same

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

A name is a name.... That's all it is! No need to argue over what they are called... We could argue terminology all day but no one is right unless the snakes skins were actually tested to see which pigments are present, in which concentrations, and which pigments the gene actually affects. And that goes for all morphs, when we are using terminology such as amelanistic, anerythristic, it is ALL speculative without the data to back it up.The one thing that does tend to confuse people is that the term anerythristic refers to a gene that removes one specific type of pigment.. In this case the reds... Or erythrins or erythrophores or whatever the heck they are called. When you look at the anery redsided, you can clearly see that there is not only a lack of reds in the snake, but a lot more going on, from the increased amounts of dark coloration, to the lack of all other color... All of the yellows and browns and tans are also gone and in what the world traditionally sees as anerythristic, doest match up with what these guys look like. I think that's the major point of confusion as I have had people commet on anery red sideds at shows before, asking me why they are called anery. The fact remains though that Scott named them anery so, that is what they are called. I don't always agree with the terminology that people use to name their snakes, especiAlly all those fancy ball python morph names like "killer bee" and "mystic potion" (combos, but you get the idea!) but I do want to point out that names are only labels we as humans give, they mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[Scott F]

Melanistics...jet black usually w/ a patch of white on their chin..anery's have a pattern...take a good long look at the pics !! Mels have a pattern when in shed, anerys always have their pattern. End of discussion (arguing this is a moot point) lol

Scott

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am not here to argue a point, merely to inject my personal observations. There is one thing for sure, none of us really know what any of our morphs are unless someone with the ability to do so stepped up and did some serious testing. it's totally possible that the gene that does this to redsideds is neither melanistic -or- anery. And the translucency of the facial features and lack of all coloration points to this possibly being the case.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

OR it's also possible that this one single gene is responsible for both a lack of production of color pigments and an increased production of melanin, which it does appear these snakes have. Yes they do lack red, so calling them anery is right, but they also lack all their yellow so they could have equally been dubbed axanthics. And as such they also appear to have a greatly increased amount of black pigment, right down to their eyes, and by definition, a hypermelanistic animal simply has increased amounts of melanin. Where or how it is distributed can depend on the type of melanism as I am sure there is more than one mutation that can cause melanism just as there is more than one that causes albinism. There are many, many examples of types of snakes that have a melanistic form that still retains a pattern. However, due to the transparency of the skin in these red sideds,( that is where they are getting that weird bluish tint from) it's quite possible that it's a unique type of mutation that is more complex than just being melanistic, or just being anery. It may not be either! The transparency points to this being possible and the fact that possibly this gene goes so far as to alter the physical makeup of the layers of skin.

[RdubSnider]

I definitely agree that there's alot left unanswered. The melanistics seem to be a. Little easier to say for sure but the difference between what's called an anery or an axathic can easily be debated. So Im with you on who ever names it, lets go with it. Very beautiful snakes and great pictures from every one

[Jeff B]

Ditto Randy

Scott you know better than to bite into troll bait, you just couldn't resist could you, lol

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

::sigh::

[ConcinusMan]

i still say those things are "melanistic" not anery!

Me too, but what do I know, I'm just a latecomer layman here on the genetics/pigments subject.

and not all melanistics have to look the same

And they don't. I don't know how many times I've seen melanistic ordinoides for sale or pictured and people call them "axanthic" or "anery" just because they look similar to anery this or axanthic that. They are nieither. They are melanistic and melanistic doesn't look the same on one species as it does another. It doesn't even have to be black necessarily.

Hey Joey, do we need to go over the genetics again on anery vs mel ??

Give it a shot. This should be entertaining. Actually I've heard it before. I'm not at all convinced by the arguments but I'm willing to hear it again.

Melanistics...jet black usually w/ a patch of white on their chin..anery's have a pattern...
Scott

Anery ordinoides often have a pattern although faint. Also not necessarily jet black. Can be charcoal gray. The melanistic you described is only one phenotype for one species. The only melanistic phenotype for eastern garters.

One must be willing to loosen their conception of what is anery, what is axanthic, and what is melanistic in order to come closer to the truth. This narrow definition of what is what, is at the heart of the issue. What is closer to the truth is that you cannot place everything in neat little well-defined packages. Biology, and life in general, isn't contained in this manner and neither should our conceptions about it be. In short, it's not all "black and white"

With all that said, I do believe that anery red-sides are the purest example and defintion of "anerythristic". all areas that should be red are pigment less. There is no more, or no less of any other pigments. There is no obvious apparent Epistasis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia going on like there likely is going on with these questionable "anery" and axanthic snakes.

This is simply not the case with my anery T.s. concinnus'. They have pigment in every place on their body. It's just not the "right" color in certain areas. In that case, I fully admit that "anery" is purely a descriptive term for lack of a better one.

There could be much more going on than simple anerythrism or axanthism (I don't even know if that's the correct terms but hell). There are probably also genes affected which are hypostatic. "Side effects" if you will, that alter the function of other genes involving pigment distribution or color. Life isn't so simple that either of us could possibly be 100% right or wrong.

I'm liking where the conversation/debate is going. It would be a shame if people dropped out over emotions and egos. Please continue!

[MasSalvaje]

Give it up Richard; everyone knows the arguments for this and that. Nothing anyone can say will definitively prove one side or the other of this moot argument.

What is closer to the truth is that you cannot place everything in neat little well-defined packages.

I do believe you can, haven't you been down the cereal isle of any grocery store? I believe they do it all the time and quite effectively if you ask me.

You forget that the entire purpose of science is to attempt to put the unexplainable into a nice little jar of formaldehyde for all to see and understand. Sometimes it works and sometimes we fall short so we stick it in another jar or box for awhile until somebody else comes along and puts it in a new jar of their own. It is a never ending process that will go on as long as our egocentric species exists. No need to hash it out every time the subject comes up.

Some call it melinistic, some call it anery, I choose to call it Black Bean Phantom Gas. Point is they are just names so call it what you may and let me and everyone else do the same without hashing it all out.

So I am not completely off topic, Please keep posting pics of these guys! They have been at the top of my "to get" list for quite some time.

-Thomas