Shipping discussions

[twgrosmick]

As far as arguments go, I would say this was pretty constructive. We had two people who thought they were right, arguing their points, providing valid info on both sides, and at the end of it there was a thread full of info and everyone learned something new.... Not everything gets resolved with "pretty please"...

[ConcinusMan]

As far as arguments go, I would say this was pretty constructive. We had two people who thought they were right, arguing their points, providing valid info on both sides Not everything gets resolved with "pretty please"...

Can't argue with that. That's a very perceptive statement.

This is going to be long, so please read it all, or read none of it.

I don't agree that either "side" is necessarily completely "right" or "wrong". Both "sides" are screwed in one way or another. If history teaches us anything it's that law is not necessarily synonymous with morality or what's "right". There are quite a few perfectly legal things which I (and others) do regarding this hobby that a lot of people consider "wrong" and those people very well could be "right". In that case it's up to us individuals to decide what course of action should be taken. Sometimes that course of action is either illegal, or legal. Regardless way you chose, it's not necessarily "right" because it's legal, or "wrong" because its illegal. People really need to understand the distinction but many people don't.

Just please consider that when someone feels they are under attack, they might respond in a way that can be considered "digging in" if you will. They might make themselves out to look like an azz, or an outlaw in the process. They might seem like they're saying their way is the only "right" way, no matter how "wrong" it can be. Just consider the things that took place during the American civil rights movement. A lot of perfectly legal "wrongs" took place. People had to choose a side. Both sides were hurt, but in the end, laws were changed for the better. Our hobby and industry is currently under attack and scrutiny. We don't know how things are going to turn out, but the battle is going to be ugly.

Now, I do try to leave it up to my customers to ask the questions, check their laws, and decide what they want to do, and whether or not they want to risk "bending" the law. (to buy, or not to buy, to ship, or not to ship USPS) I would never intentionally deceive anyone asking the right questions. If the snake they are about to buy is wild-caught, I not only tell them it is, I also tell them approx. where it came from. If they feel morally obligated to not only check laws in their own state, but also the state where the snakes come from, that is their prerogative.

The bottom line is, most of these laws are not being broken by the recipient. If their state allows unregulated importation of garter snakes, such as WY does, then they are not doing anything "wrong" as far as the law is concerned but if they were in WA they would be very "wrong" if you think that breaking a ridiculous law is "wrong". If they feel it's "wrong" to receive WC snakes from WA and OR because it's technically illegal under their ridiculous "umbrella" law, then that is up to the recipient. They can "squeal" and the main negative result will be that the snakes they own, could be subject to being destroyed, although that would probably only happen if they lived where I live.

As I may have mentioned many times in other threads, and therefore exposed myself to the risk of prosecution, ( I aint skeered ) there is a gray area regarding laws in WA. What I mean is, the law is written in black and white, but garters fall under the umbrella of "native wildlife" The enforcement is a matter of choice by each state. They only respond to complaints and choose on a case-by-case basis, whether or not is in their best interests to pursue prosecution. Every state does this, even in case of murder, rape, burglary, petty theft, etc. and sometimes still decline to pursue prosecution if it isn't "worth it" as in, not in the best interest of the state or "spirit" of the law.

Now, I know I just invited fate (the law) to come knock on my door. Not really my intention, but if certain people feel the need to report out of their moral obligation I am ready for that. I will either do time for it, in which case the "system" will just "laugh" at my charges and release me long before my sentence is served, or I will just sit there and do the time. There is one other very real possibility, and that is, they will find that there is not enough "hard" evidence to pursue prosecution in a timely and affordable manner and so decide not to pursue. Now I leave it up to those people who might be thinking about making such a report, to decide if I am deserving a worst-case scenario in which prison is a very real possibility. I know, you're probably thinking "get down off that cross, I could use the wood to build a new vivarium".

Just something for us to think about. Is what I do so much different than those before me? Not really. If people hadn't done what I do now, your coveted Puget Sound garters would not exist anywhere in captivity, nor would concinnus'. THERE'S NEVER BEEN A LEGAL WAY for them to enter the pet trade. We would just have to do without them. If ever a day came when those were protected under federal law, I think I would bow out. Funny though, how WA thumbs it's nose at Federal law, (regarding marijuana law) Well good for them. It's about time states stood up the feds. And if I must stand up to WA regarding our "rights" to keep a few non-endangered garters, then sobiet. I am willing to face the possible consequences. I don't want to, but if it's necessary I will.

All that being said, I am very much still willing to re-evaluate what I've been doing and adjust practices accordingly or just quit altogether.

[Artic Exotics]

Naturally the good doctor was not referring to the collection/ importation / exportation of wild garter snakes but all in the same. I must agree that "morality" and "law" are separate concepts. Good thread here lots of info and I love to see the passion in people.