Feeder Fish

[SourceAll]

THIS ^ ^^^^^^ Also Platys are a safe breedable fish.

Thanks for the response… Do you feed these as a staple and or an occasional snack?

[SourceAll]

Throwing the word completely makes it easy. No. Safer, would have been a better word. Guppies, Mollies and Gambusia(mosquito fish) are about as safe as you will find.
Fish I wouldn't feed unless it was life or death for the snake would be rosy reds, minnows or goldfish.

Thanks and this is the type of cautious answer I would give

Are you saying they are potentially not safe because they may contain some thiaminase or are you saying they are potentially not safe for other reasons like parasites?

Also, I might as well just say what I would like to do and hopefully you guys could tell me if its possible or more importantly not in the snakes best interest. I have had a few garters when I was kid and caught countless specimens that I later released but I currently don’t have any, just in the research stage.

I would like to build a paludarium / vivarium that is bioactive in the water and out. It would be fully planted and have isopods and springtails as janitors.

I would like to find a fish (I’m leaning towards mollies or platys) that I could stock the water feature with that would serve as the snakes main and staple diet. I would have a separate aquarium where I would breed these fish to keep the paludarium stocked. I would supplement this main staple with other items occasionally but as a day to day food item the fish would be it.

I’ve seen this done before in a crude way and was just fascinated by it but I know now as this was when I was a kid that the people didn’t know what they were doing and the fish they were using were gold fish.

Would the snakes (planning on 2 garters not sure which yet, maybe even a water snake or liophis) thrive in a set up like this?

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for the response… Do you feed these as a staple and or an occasional snack?

YW. Actually, no. I feed f/t pink rats as a staple to my garters with the switch t o hairless hoppers in the appropriate size. I do intersperse with f/t frog legs and f/t silverides. I will scent cut nightcrawlers and pink mice with fish for picky hatchlings or even picky youngsters. That scenting usually works. On another note, even though you are considering live fish as a staple the safety of thiaminase free doesn't mean you are parasite free. Probably parasite diminished.

[SourceAll]

Awesome, thanks for posting that as I'm definitely interested in what experienced keepers are feeding their snakes.

You just reminded me of something I keep forgetting to bring up... You said some fish are parasite diminished not parasite free. So, when I got back into keeping herps about 5 years ago I purchased a Woma python from a top breeder and he told me to only feed frozen rodents as live can have parasites. I haven't heard anyone mention parasites in mice in the garter world. Do you know this to be true or have you heard this?

Also, I have to say, that I hate that pinkies are considered a perfect staple and that you don't need to feed them anything else (according to the 2 care sheets I read on this site) One of the reasons I started looking into garters is to avoid mice

Any other advice for a new keeper or snake recommendations?

YW. Actually, no. I feed f/t pink rats as a staple to my garters with the switch t o hairless hoppers in the appropriate size. I do intersperse with f/t frog legs and f/t silverides. I will scent cut nightcrawlers and pink mice with fish for picky hatchlings or even picky youngsters. That scenting usually works. On another note, even though you are considering live fish as a staple the safety of thiaminase free doesn't mean you are parasite free. Probably parasite diminished.

[Albert Clark]

Awesome, thanks for posting that as I'm definitely interested in what experienced keepers are feeding their snakes.

You just reminded me of something I keep forgetting to bring up... You said some fish are parasite diminished not parasite free. So, when I got back into keeping herps about 5 years ago I purchased a Woma python from a top breeder and he told me to only feed frozen rodents as live can have parasites. I haven't heard anyone mention parasites in mice in the garter world. Do you know this to be true or have you heard this?

Also, I have to say, that I hate that pinkies are considered a perfect staple and that you don't need to feed them anything else (according to the 2 care sheets I read on this site) One of the reasons I started looking into garters is to avoid mice

Any other advice for a new keeper or snake recommendations?

They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

[guidofatherof5]

They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

Need a citation on that 90% moister content Albert. I think that is a little high. So high I thought you were talking about night crawlers.

[Albert Clark]

Need a citation on that 90% moister content Albert. I think that is a little high. So high I thought you were talking about night crawlers.

Well, what percentage do you have the moisture at Steve? I would think it depends on which nutritional analysis reports you are looking at. Laboratories vary and their interpretations and results vary as well.

[SourceAll]

Thanks and yeah he seemed to know what he was talking about and almost all snake keepers these days seem to feed frozen.

That seems to be the key from what I've read and heard, variety.

Also, I was reading the recent posts and figured I'd go dig up one of the care sheets I read to see if I remembered it wrong:

“The main advantage of using mice is that they are more nutritious than fish or worms: they do not require supplementation and there is no risk of a thiamin deficiency. Garter snakes feeding on mice don’t need to be fed as often and they grow faster, too. Another significant advantage is that garter snake feces is a lot less watery and smelly!
There are, in fact, only two disadvantages to using mice, and neither of them have anything to do with their nutritive value. Some keepers may not be comfortable feeding mice to their snakes — in fact, they may have chosen garter snakes so that they wouldn’t have to feed mice to them.” <- I enjoyed that last part lol

It was on Garter Snake Care Guide - Gartersnake.info

Is this not a good source of information? I have no idea obviously.

They are considered parasite diminished bc you are raising them to thrive in pristine conditions by having no overcrowding, proper filtration, and proper acid base balances. Parasites certainly can be in rodents. That is why we as keepers feed frozen thawed. There is always that chance that at any given time by continuing to feed live, there is more of a risk for a reptile to have a outbreak of high parasitic loads. This is true but can be reduced by feeding frozen thawed, keeping your husbandry numbers dialed in correctly, and very importantly to pay attention to cleanliness of the terrarium. That is crucial for garters who have high metabolisms and have high outputs of waste products. Keeping water bowls clean and disinfected on a regular basis will all help to keep parasitic loads to a minimum. Pink mice and rats are not completely a perfect staple bc they are mostly (90%) moisture. Lacking calcium mainly but they do have whole organs however small. Pink rats being a larger animal has a greater proportion but still mostly moisture. You can also steer clear of rodents if that is your choice but the garters will need complete nutrition from a varied safe diet which may include reptile vitamin/ mineral supplementation.

[SourceAll]

Anybody else with specific garter recommends and why? Would truly appreciate any and all opinions...