Thamnophis Sirtalis Sirtalis????

[Cazador]

Two more cents to spend as you choose... Rossman et al. recommend counting the dorsal scales beginning with the 10th one in front of (anterior to) the vent since the number of dorsal scales can vary within a single subspecies and even on the same individual, between the vent and the neck.

[suzoo]

Two more cents to spend as you choose... Rossman et al. recommend counting the dorsal scales beginning with the 10th one in front of (anterior to) the vent since the number of dorsal scales can vary within a single subspecies and even on the same individual, between the vent and the neck.

OK, so I count again. My only adult male Gerby, but guess what, I only got nine counting the top one...now what??? Is he a different sub? He is not a ribbon, but much longer and thinner than the girls, resembling a ribbon, but not THAT long and narrow.

[GarterGuy]

Like Rick (Cazador) had said, you can have some variance between individuals and especially with males, that tend to be smaller and more slender then females, this might be possible. That's also why you can use the other characteristics like placement of the side stripe, spots below the side stripe....number of labials, ect. to make a positive ID. If your count was correct, this would give you a scale count of 17, which doesn't correspond to any of the Thamnophis species that are found in your area. Even ribbons, by the book, have a scale count of 19. The only ones with 17 are T.ordinoides and T.brachystoma...ones a west coast garter, the other an east coast one.