shoot...

[Lumpy]

I understand nature vs. man, but...

To follow that idea to it's purest end, then we shouldn't even own snakes and better to leave them to their "natural" state. Then the possibility of human foul up is 0%.

As I said earlier, how many people right on this board own non-native speices of snakes? Snakes that are not native to their region or country? How are these owners any more/less responsible to not loose their pets and or breed them irresponsibily? Right here on this board a snake has been lost. I hope it's found, and I'm sure the owner is responsible individual, but things happen. If any one of us trades/sells any snake, what guarantee do we have that that animal will be responsibly owned and not bred incorrectly or lost to the wild?

There are no guarantees once "man" has mingled in the natural world.

Just sayin..


Greg

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Thank you all for the last few posts, and I am not even the original poster. Tina? It is good to keep certain "arguments" going, for new light may be shed at every turn. Some may think it odd for a self-acclaimed animal lover like myself to support an act of ophidiacide. I have done it with weak specimens (once emaciated from never having once eaten) that occur with every corn snake brood I have hatched. Those put down would have never made it in the wild (as a comparison only).

I do have to admit that the controversy in itself is NOT unjustified. It is a difficult question. Man has been interfering all along, and ultimately - there are no guarantees that no one else has goofed up, and it is possible that tainted lines are on the market already, perhaps even in the wild. My opinion is that we do not add to the problem. Nature may possibly dilute the accidental incursions one can only hope... but keep it up, and then there's definitely no hope.

I am still of the mind that this is all about trusting humans.

If it is not, and it only about saving something alive (esp. from our own undoing), then I can not take part of this conversation anymore. The logic stops here. I can't argue with blind compassion. It's blind!

In regards to inbreeding: I am a firm believer in regular outcrossing of captive-bred specimens. I can see how that may occasionally be a problem for non-North American keepers of Thamnophis. How often to European keepers get fresh stock?

If I were a Thamnophis breeder, I would reaffirm the stock with sympatric specimen types from different areas; that way you can keep the line consistent without too much inbreeding. If....

Unfortunately, I know too many breeders (in the U.S.) who don't know squat about genetics first of all, so who really knows what they are spitting out; I know countless pet shops here that do not subscribe to all the fish and game laws, and thus there are no official records there either....

To tell you the truth, to heck with it! Man has done way too much damage already. This planet is screwed anyways, DON'T LISTEN! Do what you want. Most people don't listen anyways.....

Tired of making sense,

Steven

P.S. Drache, It helps to know that there may be an intergrade zone between the two; my fault for not researching this further (darn West Coast people!). This alone may mute the whole thread!

[drache]

P.S. Drache, It helps to know that there may be an intergrade zone between the two; my fault for not researching this further (darn West Coast people!). This alone may mute the whole thread!

Steven
I have no idea whether there are intergrades in nature - just that there are overlapping areas of accurrance
my assumption is that, if accidents happen in captivity, it's quite possible that they happen in nature
they are both sirtalis species after all

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Steven
I have no idea whether there are intergrades in nature - just that there are overlapping areas of accurrance
my assumption is that, if accidents happen in captivity, it's quite possible that they happen in nature
they are both sirtalis species after all

Intergrades DO occur, especially in NW California. Hope to see some today. (Huh?)

I'm gone for 4 days in the redwoods camping.

Ciao

[gregmonsta]

Just sayin..


Greg

I know mate I've been enjoying this thread because it's so full of differing opinions. I love to throw tangents in every now and again. Anyway, when it comes down to it I don't ever plan to breed anything other than same subspecies couples (which I hope to mix up with unrelated breeders as and when possible).
But .... essentially I think those flaming babies are cute as Hell and the colour is so striking. I'd love to have one and do believe that there should be no problem keeping it as a stand alone 'look at the flame on this' pet.