Vagans/Wandering Garters

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am not comfortable with fish and game knocking on my door either, so I don't know if I will do any CA Kingsnake breeding in the years to come. There are plenty of Kings on the CB market already!

As for garters, I think we should stick with the ones that are legal for every person's state. Pushing the limit or breeding illegally will only further add fuel to the fire that is consuming the hobby - continued passing of ever stricter laws! If you tempt the authorities in California, our laws could get worse. It's enough that we have extremists like PETA trying to shut the trade down. But the fuel for their fire is partially valid due to so much of the ignorance and apathy abroad!

Regarding non-commercial breeding: It is rather pointless; what do you do with excess snakes you are not allowed to sell?

Now this may seem extreme to some, and perhaps impossible to carry out, but I think all herp possessions should be licensed just like a dog. With the license would come mandatory caging and care requirements for the species in mind. My reason for supporting this is simple and perhaps a bit harsh: A lot of people want to have a herp as a pet (this goes for any pet actually). Every time I visit my pet store of choice (to buy feeders or sell them; I breed rats and mice...) I can't count how many customers I see, who really, REALLY should not be allowed to own a pet. I am not attacking those who take the time and money to invest in the proper upkeep and education regarding their acquired pet. I am referring to the ignorant and cheap individuals who want to shut their kid up, buy them an animal, and spend the bare bare minimum on a set-up, only to offer them up for adoption or set them loose when they get too big, eat too much, or just aren't cute anymore. If you really have the passion for the hobby, you would make the investment. Those with the superficial approach probably wouldn't get the license, and therefore the animal, and that animal would then be spared a possibly horrible life! Some people should not have animals as pets... For that matter, some people shouldn't have kids. Most everyone can breed; not everyone is a good parent. The same applies to keeping animals.

Plus... and I may be slightly suspect myself, many herp-keepers I know have just a bit of obsessive compulsiveness. Talk to Kathy Love (cornutopia.com) and tell her you have a couple of corn snakes, and she will tell you that's not enough! I know a lot of reptile hoarders, and I am beginning to see a problem here as well. We humans sometimes just want it all!
In the long run, our obsession to have or multiply our pets may be a detriment. Count how many of us chat on this forum on a regular basis; I am sure most of us care about our animals. Now how many other herp keepers are out there that don't even consider all the outcomes of their actions.... Do all of us combined have that many fingers and toes???

I am currently downsizing my corn population because of a plethora of corns in the trade (goldfish of the snake trade). Corns are approaching a dead end in popularity (despite all the beautiful morphs and phases). Start this madness with garters (It has begun!), and we are going to have an oversaturation of garters! We may not see this now, but can anybody say bearded dragon birth control?
I am instead focusing on photography, and learning how to frame the best pics! I'm also out in the field a lot with the GPS taking notes for my website.
As our economy is heading further into the dumps, I am cutting down on lighting, heating, and food costs. I no longer want to see myself as an obsessive snake collector! It's not healthy, for me or the snake. The few I decide to keep will be single natives studied in tandem with my wildlife major. This is not to say I won't breed in the future; I intend to do hybrid research, but not for the industry.

Okay, I've been rambling again.... I must always remember... that in this twisted world people are going to do what they want anyways.

Steve

[Loren]

Well Steven, I've had some of the same thoughts myself. I wish somehow we could keep all those people that shouldnt have herps from having them, without it affecting myself or others who actually do know what they are doing. Rather than a minimum equipment standard, I would prefer a minimum knowledge test. Someone with good experience/knowledge can keep a herp healthly in a pretty basic setup, while someone without a clue could easily kill a herp in a 3000 dollar monster cage. Besides general husbandtry knowledge, people should be required to know what the animal will require as an adult, and how soon adulthood will be. I cant stand seeing someone buy a herp, and then ask what it eats.
As for hoarding, I have always felt that the line between having a collection and hoarding is whether or not you can and do properly care for all of the animals. I do have to constantly monitor myself so that I dont cross that line, as I am often near it- but thats why I dont have red tails, carpet pythons, womas, dumerils, blackthroat monitors, every species of racer...
Many people get tired of caring for a large collection and venture into other areas of the hobby, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the bottom line is, you definitely have to know how much you can handle.

As for garter breeding, I hope that each species will be captive bred in various states. As for an eventual overpopulation of captive bred, well, thats a tough one, not sure what to do with that.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Rather than a minimum equipment standard, I would prefer a minimum knowledge test. Someone with good experience/knowledge can keep a herp healthly in a pretty basic setup, while someone without a clue could easily kill a herp in a 3000 dollar monster cage. Besides general husbandtry knowledge, people should be required to know what the animal will require as an adult, and how soon adulthood will be. I cant stand seeing someone buy a herp, and then ask what it eats.
As for hoarding, I have always felt that the line between having a collection and hoarding is whether or not you can and do properly care for all of the animals.

Couldn't agree with you more Loren! Some of the employees at my pet store of choice have told me I should work there, but I always have to respond, "Are you kidding? I'd get fired the first day for snapping at one of your idiot customers!" You know... the thug who's all big and tough (maybe steroids?) and says, "A-huh! Yea... I wanna anaconda, so I can show mah freyinds how it'll eat a pig. Heeyuk!"
I would say, "Buddy, the only anaconda anyone should sell you is one big enough to swallow your stupid (Bleeep!), so we'll be rid of you!" LOL!

I must think I'm funny...

Steve

[Loren]

Yeah, I'd like to see the day that the petstore employees not only know what they are talking about, but refuse to sell herps to unknowledgeable/idiot customers. As I think you touched on earlier, law breaking and unknowledgeable keepers are the fuel that Peta loves to use to the maximum.

[Stefan-A]

Now this may seem extreme to some, and perhaps impossible to carry out, but I think all herp possessions should be licensed just like a dog. With the license would come mandatory caging and care requirements for the species in mind.

I find it reasonable, but as you say, impossible to carry out. Too many animals to keep track of, too many species and subspecies to take into consideration, too many people who are unwilling to get that license, when all they need to do, is to keep quiet. To keep this short, I see no reason why anybody except a few very serious commercial breeders would get licensed, it would be a law that's impossible to enforce and quite possibly impossible to follow. Then there's the thing about caging and care requirements. Who'll be making the requirements? Someone who'll allow conditions below the absolute minimum, or one that makes completely ludicrous demands that will make it impossible for anybody who isn't a vet or a scientist to keep them? The more specific you make a law, the bigger the risk is, that you'll get a compromise that doesn't benefit the animal, or an extreme solution that's as good as a ban. Every time somebody makes a stricter law, it mostly punishes those that have not done and would not do anything wrong.

Incidentally, I recently heard about a law in another country, that says that dogs and cats can't be left unsupervised for more than 6 hours (a typical work day is 8). The person who told me about it, is a real fanatic (also a gigantic hypocrite) when it comes to animal welfare and she got upset when I asked her why not 5 hours or 7, and when I wondered what that number was based on, she declared that she doesn't care what it's based on. Is that the kind of person you'd want making the decisions?

My reason for supporting this is simple and perhaps a bit harsh: A lot of people want to have a herp as a pet (this goes for any pet actually). Every time I visit my pet store of choice (to buy feeders or sell them; I breed rats and mice...) I can't count how many customers I see, who really, REALLY should not be allowed to own a pet. I am not attacking those who take the time and money to invest in the proper upkeep and education regarding their acquired pet. I am referring to the ignorant and cheap individuals who want to shut their kid up, buy them an animal, and spend the bare bare minimum on a set-up, only to offer them up for adoption or set them loose when they get too big, eat too much, or just aren't cute anymore. If you really have the passion for the hobby, you would make the investment. Those with the superficial approach probably wouldn't get the license, and therefore the animal, and that animal would then be spared a possibly horrible life! Some people should not have animals as pets... For that matter, some people shouldn't have kids. Most everyone can breed; not everyone is a good parent. The same applies to keeping animals.

I think the responsibility in this case should be on the pet store. I like to brag about my local pet store, it recently received an award for good business ethics. It won't even sell a goldfish without asking you a few questions about your aquarium and what's in it and they have refused to sell to people I know, because they were going to mix species with different requirements on water hardness. They really force pet owners/buyers to educate themselves before they'll be able to buy any animals. But how would you go about making a store change the way they do business? That's something I don't have any good answers to. Education of the owners and clerks? Education of the public, so that they'll understand what they should demand of the pet stores? Make it illegal to sell an animal without providing the buyer with at least a basic care sheet? The parents obviously have a responsibility, too, but they're distracted by their whining kids and the pet stores do function as a hub.

Of course there's the matter of what to do with the animals when the owners don't want them any longer for whatever reason. The shelters obviously need more resources. Not much else that can be done.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yeah, all the regulation would create a cluster-(you-know-what). And imagine the chaos of trying to figure every state's different laws!