A disturbing trend, really disturbing

[Lumpy]

So let's be fair. Those of you who consider yourselves experienced and knowledgeable when it come to Garders, reptiles or what have you, started out as experts? You can learn from others, read book, learn terms, but you gain knowlegde and understanding through your own personal experiences. I think caring for any animal is more a factor of maturity than money. I grew up watching my Dad drive a car, but I was no expert the first time I got behind the wheel. We all have to start out as novices.

While I agree that keeping a captive Garder for the sake of babies is self serving and not smart, I think those who have considerable background with Garters have a duty to educate, assist and have discussions like this. I wouldn't take for granted that there are caring and engaged people who desire to learn and do well by their snakes.

I have to be honest, and I'm not pointing fingers either, but the flip side of this is a certain amount of brow beating I see on the forum as well. I don't think that attitude is endearing to the cause either. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but there's a ying and a yang to all this. I think it wise to point out possible issues and take the opportunity to educate owners about the health and saftey of Garters to those less knowledgeable, but to outright suggest that the less experienced are incapable is foolish. I see it as a prime opportunity to empart experience to those seeking it. But there's a certain level of "those who don't know, shouldn't have them" attitude that I feel is counter productive and will drive people away. I don't see as an inviting reason for anyone to stick around and learn.

Again, sure there are some people (not suggesting anyone here) who shouldn't own any living/breathing thing that relies on it's caregiver for all things. However, someone who comes to this forum to learn about a Garter they caught, bought or was given is at least showing an inkling of interest in learning about the nature and care of their pet. I think that should be nurtured. Nothing wrong with being direct with someone who you think may be harming a snake, but how you approach it makes all the difference. Being flippant, and yes I've seen it here, isn't going to help anyone's cause.

As Stephan stated, these are my opinions, take them for whatever they are worth to you.

Lump

[Stefan-A]

But there's a certain level of "those who don't know, shouldn't have them" attitude that I feel is counter productive and will drive people away.

Some people keep rushing headlong into situations they should be able to recognize as problematic, especially for a beginner. Others keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again, without seemingly learning anything. At some point you just run out nice ways of telling them to slow down and reconsider.

Anyway, I'm off. Hopefully I'll be able to get online at some point these next couple of days.

[Zephyr]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

[Stefan-A]

I think that to take a gravid female from the wild, and be inclined to keep her babies shows a certain level of knowledge in the subject itself. My friend Abby said her friend caught a gravid garter snake and released it and its babies once they were born. To want to care for the snake, nonetheless identify it as gravid, requires a certain level of skill and knownledge in the first place.
Also, I think that the most crucial point to taking gravid snakes is making sure the area you're taking them from can endure the loss of both the ma and her babies. Henceforth, it's everything but responsible to go to an area with only a few garters and swipe the biggest, fattest female you can find. (The exception to this would be at some one's house or on there land, where the snake would either be killed by the home/land owner or meet Mr. Choppy the lawnmower.)

I couldn't disagree with you more. Even if a person is capable of identifying a gravid garter, doesn't mean that the person knows the first thing about keeping, caring for and raising garters or is otherwise suitable for the job. On the contrary, it shows a fairly careless and selfish attitude to do so, even if the person may just be well-meaning and naive.

I also disagree with the point you're making about only taking from areas, that can endure the loss of the female and the offspring. Who here can honestly tell (and I do mean estimate for real, not just guess) whether or not the population can endure it? That one person isn't the only one catching or killing snakes and it adds up quickly. That's one way to reduce a healthy population to a level where it starts to collapse on its own. And like I pointed out in the other thread, catching a gravid female does as much damage to the population, as killing it. If it's about feeling good about having saved a snake's life, then that's something I think is legit, but that's not a real favour. Leaving it alone and hoping that it will escape detection or will avoid being run over by the lawnmower, is already a much safer alternative. Maybe even better than relocation.