Taxonomic discussion

[Zephyr]

On the T. s. tetrataenia and infernalis... I think they may just be color phases of one another with tetrataenia being morph... Obviously this was rejected, but I don't know if they actually did blood work to test the hypothesis.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

On the T. s. tetrataenia and infernalis... I think they may just be color phases of one another with tetrataenia being morph... Obviously this was rejected, but I don't know if they actually did blood work to test the hypothesis.

I would agree that there are many similarities b/n tetrataenia and infernalis, but then a subspecies is just a subspecies, meaning that they should technically be able to intergrade in the wild - they are the SAME species. As for the similar colors and variable patterns, or whether or not recessive genes are responsible - I don't know. We know striping is a recessive gene in corn snakes, but recessive genes vary from species to species, genus to genus, and so forth... The blues that show up in both subspecies may actually have nothing to due with recessive genes. The effects could be ontogenetic, as when a local population changes its diet or migrates to new terrain. You are what you eat, and appropriate camouflage and behaviors addressing a new locale are a big part of where evolutionary change begins. For instance, we know a lot of animals display bright red colors when they are toxic, or even when they perhaps dine on normally toxic prey. Could red flecking in some of our western species be a by-product of salamander toxins? Questions, questions....

Thamnophis genetics is still so elusive in its understanding, more genetic sampling needs to be done! The sirtalis clade is so widespread over the continent, I am curious if Eastern and Western species can intergrade so smoothly. I personally don't endorse far-flung intergrades, nor any captive intergrades due to preferring to maintain the integrity of the "local" characteristics. still, what would the verdict be? Does anyone know if it's been done (whether or not it produces a muddled mutt or takes on a dominant trait from one of the parents)?

The infernalis / concinnus connection seems to be way off in my mind. These two subspecies are separated by fitchi populations. I guess, though after a long passage of time, genetic traits could "pass the bucket" all the way up the coast!?

While the eastern / western ssp. intergrade question remains, I am still more interested in the possibility of inter-special hybrids occurring right here in Humboldt County, CA.

I've gone on about this topic before, but I'd like to post a few example photos here to show my frustration with the gestalt of some of these snakes. First, Stefan-A, I understand T. e. terrestris has been absorbed by T. e. elegans (Great! Now the elegans clade has a whole plethora of morphs to add to its list!), but could you find me a link about this, as I would love to read it. So... "Mountain Garters" here on the coast and in our coastal ranges come in all kinds of patterns and colors, but most all the coastals have olive-green, olive-brown, light olive-tan, or near black heads.
Contrarily CA Red-sided Garters usually have red heads perhaps with some black. Also, I am not going to focus too much on labial scale counts, as they are highly variable b/n the 2 species. Designated scale rows b/n the species are also sometimes variable (19 or 21). Red dorso-lateral or ventral flecking is characteristic of coastal elegans. Faded or absent lateral stripes are characteristic of infernalis.

So what do you think of these?


Ignore the title of the picture, as I believe ordinoides might not be the culprit here. This snake basically looks like an infernalis (perhaps with some light fitchi influence - the further north you travel up Humboldt, the more fitchi they appear...)

A closer look reveals red-flecking.

...and ventral flecks at the caudal end...


This 2nd specimen at the same location looks like an infernalis with subdued features, but what's with the olive head?

Olive or red? Both!? Hmmm....

Looks like sirtalis from the side....

I've got one more pic of what looks like a bonafide coastal elegans. But i've posted 6 pics already... To be continued.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

A muddled "Coast" with all the red flecking...


While these specimens might just be crazy variations, the possibility of hybridization in the wild fascinates me. I don't believe that there's any complete hybridization possible, since that might muddle all the local traits (unless we are really dealing with a variety of recessive or co-dominant, etc traits). I suspect partial hybridization where perhaps fertile females are possible. As with inter-generic crosses like that of creating jungle corns, males are often sterile. Keeping this in mind, it is possible that subspecies traits could be reaffirmed by crossing female hybrids back to one or the other subspecies, thus preventing over-all muddling within a specific locality.

The truth (HA!) of the matter is, we just don't know it all yet. Recessives, co-dominants, intergrade and hybrid effects, diet, environment, inter-breeding in isolated populations.... The sky is the limit.

Thamnophis - truly a conundrum at times!

Steve

[ssssnakeluvr]

A muddled "Coast" with all the red flecking...

I would say this is a coast garter for sure......

[Stefan-A]

So what do you think of these?

They all look like definite fitchi to me, but you're the local.

This next one, however, is very interesting:

A muddled "Coast" with all the red flecking...

Are you positive that it's not something else? I know counting supralabials isn't a fool proof way of identifying T. elegans, since it can be 7 on one side and 8 on the other, but that one does have 7. I know this is going to sound stupid, but is there any chance at all that it could actually be an ordinoides? Nevermind, the scale rows seem to be 19, not 17.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

They all look like definite fitchi to me, but you're the local.

This next one, however, is very interesting:


Are you positive that it's not something else? I know counting supralabials isn't a fool proof way of identifying T. elegans, since it can be 7 on one side and 8 on the other, but that one does have 7. I know this is going to sound stupid, but is there any chance at all that it could actually be an ordinoides? Nevermind, the scale rows seem to be 19, not 17.

Not at all stupid! My first impression was ordinoides. The coastal elegans though often displays these colorful fusions that are very reminiscent of Northwesterns. It is currently believed that ordinoides, elegans, and atratus may all be sister taxons. Check out Californiaherps.com - Gary Nafis' site is a great quick resource for pics and info for western herps. The coastal elegans variations are shown. The Natives sightings on HumboldtHerps.com also shows many of our local morphs. I believe guide map ranges are out of date (even Peterson's). You are right regarding the fitchi-like appearance of the 1st 2 garters. This also has to do with range map interpretation. T. s. infernalis is confined to south of the Klamath River and fitchi is to the north. I have seen the effects of fitchi all the way to the Mad River (30+ mi. south), but then this could be a grand assumption, for the appearances may just be a result of ecotypic plasticity. I personally believe the whole subspecies concept is no longer an applicable taxonomical interpretation of what is really happening with some of these species. Nature abhors a vacuum, and it is always changing. It's we humans who always feel compelled to have everything in order. "Mother Nature" doesn't care. "She" is just doing her thing. I also suspect ordinoides' range to be much further south than what is printed even in the latest guides.

Steve

[ssssnakeluvr]

[quote=Steven@HumboldtHerps;85937]

I've gone on about this topic before, but I'd like to post a few example photos here to show my frustration with the gestalt of some of these snakes. First, Stefan-A, I understand T. e. terrestris has been absorbed by T. e. elegans (Great! Now the elegans clade has a whole plethora of morphs to add to its list!), but could you find me a link about this, as I would love to read it. So... "Mountain Garters" here on the coast and in our coastal ranges come in all kinds of patterns and colors, but most all the coastals have olive-green, olive-brown, light olive-tan, or near black heads.


I thought I read that terrestris was now vagrans....let me know what you find out....I am trying to look up and find out what I can also.....





So what do you think of these?







Definitely think this is fitchi....I have a male fitchi from Utah with the orange flecking on the belly....plus, being all black with the red...haven't seen a fitchi with any other background colors.... VERY nice female too!!!!! I love fitchi!!!!





may be also a fitchi.....good pic, but can't quite tell the colors well enough....







well....ooops....by looking at the neck shot.....I would say formerly terrestris.....has more greenish background colors......