b1 deficiency

[ssssnakeluvr]

what kind of fish are you feeding....it doesn't show up fast... also, garters can grow up just fine on a diet of only fish....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

what kind of fish are you feeding....it doesn't show up fast... also, garters can grow up just fine on a diet of only fish....

see that is what I was thinking also, don. I observed this kind of thing he is describing only twice. Once was when the snake mites had invaded me. The snakes would turn upside down and do what looked like convulsing, but was really just attepts to get the bugs off.

The other time was a few weeks ago when I walked into my snake room to hear violent thrashing. I narrowed it to my female similis's tub and pulled it out to find her convulsing, thrashing, seizuring, shaking... her mouth wide open and her tongue permanently stuck out and shaking... with no sign of recovering. after 15 minutes of trying to revive her from that state, I put her in the freezer. Two weeks later, my Iowa snow radix, my beloved girl who was a champion eater, refuses her pinkie and proceeds to die the following day. I did not get the chance to see if she convulsed or not, but I will say that the two snakes were kept separate and never had contact... and were not eating fish! Needless to say... my snakeroom is on serious lockdown right now. Maybe these two deaths were just a horrible coincidence... maybe the same thing killed them. I talked to scott felzer on the phone about it for a bit, he said he had never seen anyhing like that!

[Jack Neary]

see that is what I was thinking also, don. I observed this kind of thing he is describing only twice. Once was when the snake mites had invaded me. The snakes would turn upside down and do what looked like convulsing, but was really just attepts to get the bugs off.

The other time was a few weeks ago when I walked into my snake room to hear violent thrashing. I narrowed it to my female similis's tub and pulled it out to find her convulsing, thrashing, seizuring, shaking... her mouth wide open and her tongue permanently stuck out and shaking... with no sign of recovering. after 15 minutes of trying to revive her from that state, I put her in the freezer. Two weeks later, my Iowa snow radix, my beloved girl who was a champion eater, refuses her pinkie and proceeds to die the following day. I did not get the chance to see if she convulsed or not, but I will say that the two snakes were kept separate and never had contact... and were not eating fish! Needless to say... my snakeroom is on serious lockdown right now. Maybe these two deaths were just a horrible coincidence... maybe the same thing killed them. I talked to scott felzer on the phone about it for a bit, he said he had never seen anyhing like that!

Shannon,
What happened to your Similis that you put in the freezer? Is he or she OK now? What did Scott think it could be?

[snakeman]

see that is what I was thinking also, don. I observed this kind of thing he is describing only twice. Once was when the snake mites had invaded me. The snakes would turn upside down and do what looked like convulsing, but was really just attepts to get the bugs off.

The other time was a few weeks ago when I walked into my snake room to hear violent thrashing. I narrowed it to my female similis's tub and pulled it out to find her convulsing, thrashing, seizuring, shaking... her mouth wide open and her tongue permanently stuck out and shaking... with no sign of recovering. after 15 minutes of trying to revive her from that state, I put her in the freezer. Two weeks later, my Iowa snow radix, my beloved girl who was a champion eater, refuses her pinkie and proceeds to die the following day. I did not get the chance to see if she convulsed or not, but I will say that the two snakes were kept separate and never had contact... and were not eating fish! Needless to say... my snakeroom is on serious lockdown right now. Maybe these two deaths were just a horrible coincidence... maybe the same thing killed them. I talked to scott felzer on the phone about it for a bit, he said he had never seen anyhing like that!

Make sure you get that in check.I lost all of my adult garters a couple of years ago in a span of 2-3 weeks.All of thier lungs were enlarged.I am guessing it was some sort of respiratory infection.They did seem to die violently.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Make sure you get that in check.I lost all of my adult garters a couple of years ago in a span of 2-3 weeks.All of thier lungs were enlarged.I am guessing it was some sort of respiratory infection.They did seem to die violently.

it's in check, and it's been even before it happened. All of these snakes are still in quarantine and separate from others. Now, the others will be in it for longer.

Kevin, I really don't think this is a thiamine deficiency, especially if it was salmon you were using. Never have I heard of garter snakes suffering that quickly from eating fish and worms for a while, provided they are safe fish. Look at wild garters, many of them probably only ever get to eat worms and fish,a dn never even see a rodent, and they are not keeling over dead fromt thiamine deficiencies. I could only see Thiamine deficiency happening that quickly had you been using fish which are unsafe, thus blocking the absorbtion of any B1. B1 has to be in the prey items they eat, otherwise how would wild garters get their thiamine?

And to the person who asked if the feeder goldfish won't be enough...

the feeder goldfish are enough to kill your snake, you should entirely avoid even looking in their direction if you own a garter snake

I have gotten at points where I just did not have any pinkies to spare for the garters and they got salmon and worms until the next show... and my snakes are not any worse for wear. I read that T. butleri fecal samples from wild individuals revealed a diet entirely of earthworms and nothing else!!! (now if i can just find that) I would lay any amount of money that thiamine deficiency did not kill my similis. The sad thing is.. they were both flawless pinky eaters

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have noticed the thiaminase affects babies and sub-adults more than adults.....I fed adult garters goldfish for years and never had a problem, but look out with the little ones...can be hard on them. I found out about catfish containing thiaminase the hard way. it takes a while for the it to start causing problems...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have noticed the thiaminase affects babies and sub-adults more than adults.....I fed adult garters goldfish for years and never had a problem, but look out with the little ones...can be hard on them. I found out about catfish containing thiaminase the hard way. it takes a while for the it to start causing problems...

you're very right... and the thing is, kevin was using salmon, which does not even contain thiaminase... I really don't see thamine deficiency as the issue here.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I got some bad fish years ago.....snakes went into convulsions after about half an hour after eating.....but it was bad fish, from a crappy store, fish was spoiled. they have pretty tough digestive systems....I have seen photos of a plains garter eating a roadkilled toad and an eastern eating a roadkilled bird (have a copy of that photo). my het pied eastern didn't eat last week, fish dried out, pinkie rat leg dried out. she shed the n ext day and scarfed the dried food....not problems....guess she likes fish and rat jerky!!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I got some bad fish years ago.....snakes went into convulsions after about half an hour after eating.....but it was bad fish, from a crappy store, fish was spoiled. they have pretty tough digestive systems....I have seen photos of a plains garter eating a roadkilled toad and an eastern eating a roadkilled bird (have a copy of that photo). my het pied eastern didn't eat last week, fish dried out, pinkie rat leg dried out. she shed the n ext day and scarfed the dried food....not problems....guess she likes fish and rat jerky!!!

LOL

I too have witnessed a garter snake attempting to scrape a carcass off the road. On reptastic I know there are some photo's somewhere of an eastern garter snake trying to eat a smooshed frog!

[crzy_kevo]

what kind of fish are you feeding....it doesn't show up fast... also, garters can grow up just fine on a diet of only fish....

i feed them salmon and before it got too cold out they were eating salmon and worms

i know it usually does take a while for them to show signs but what could explain them both doing this . either way giving them the vitramin supplement is still a good idea so still better to be safe than sorry right