cross breeding project

[PINJOHN]

Knowing the inadvisability of crossing various types of garter snakes and taking note of the number of grassnakes now in the hands of American breeders i wondered if anyone had the notion of crossing the grassnake and the garter....
This may not present the same problems as crossing thamnophis, such young getting into the general gene pool.... although i can hear the purists sharpening their swords even as i type.
but i do enjoy starting a debate

[aquamentus_11]

i don't know if you can do that. grass snakes lay eggs and garters bare live young. i would imagine that wouldn't work somehow. plus, they're not just different species, they're different genera.

[Spankenstyne]

My first question would be why? What possible benefit would there be?

I know folks have endless reasons for justifying breeding animals but in my opinion unless you have a specific goal in mind it probably shouldn't be done. To me "just to see" isn't a reason I find justification for breeding, but others probably do. For me it's trying to improve on the previous generation. Making stronger, healthier, "better" examples of my ideal of the particular species or ssp. I don't just breed any snakes I have, I spend time finding the best examples I can and try to improve from there. Yes I know it is a bit hypocritical and there are many grey area arguments that can be made about hobbyists breeding anything at all even, but crossing & hybrids imo is a slippery slope that can quickly lead to very questionable backgrounds of the snakes we keep. One just needs to look into the Pituophis world or the Kingsnake world to see how muddy the waters have become and how difficult it's become can be to find snakes with a clean background you can trust.
We're fortunate that since we're a niche portion of a niche hobby that not many cross or hybridize their Thamnophis at this time as there's less monetary motivation to do so & mainly purists are interested in these snakes. Hopefully it stays that way. We have a responsibility as we're really acting as god in a way when we breed replacing natures place in natural selection, so we need to do so as responsibly as we can to help ensure generations down the road get to enjoy these animals as we do.

Just my $.02 & should make for an interesting discussion lol. Really though I don't know if this hypothetical cross is even possible?

Also for the record since it often goes hand in hand with these topics: I have no problem with the morphs in the hobby, some are quite nice looking but my preferences are in the more naturally occurring stuff. To each their own as long as people honestly represent their animals.

[guidofatherof5]

Muddy water is still muddy water

[chris-uk]

Brave man starting this debate. With your lack of time at the keyboard recently, can I assume that you won't be around much over the coming weeks and that this is an exercise in lighting the blue touchpaper and retiring to a safe distance?
My only comment will be - I don't see any benefits to doing this, I don't know if it is possible, and it's not something I would do.

[mikem]

What Nate said. Even if you wanted to, it would be impossible.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I don't know how that would work...an egg laying snake and a live young baring snake...just sounds scary to me. Really scary. I don't even want to know what would come out of that if fertilization was successful.

[Stefan-A]

although i can hear the purists sharpening their swords even as i type.

I'm also smearing it with feces to ensure infection.

[PINJOHN]

Brave man starting this debate. With your lack of time at the keyboard recently, can I assume that you won't be around much over the coming weeks and that this is an exercise in lighting the blue touchpaper and retiring to a safe distance?

Chris you know me so well yes it's so easy to wind up the purist's, just couldn't resist it, but the actual reason for this thread is to pass on a piece of information i just came across ....the accidental successful mating of the two snakes mentioned and yes i had assumed it to be an impossibility but it seem's to have occurred in a zoo in Sweden some years ago ...a male grassnake with a female common garter who successfully gave birth to live young ....just when you think you have all the positives nailed down nature kicks you in the gooly's again.
perhaps someone with more internet skills than me[and that's everyone] can track down further information on this event
Its started me thinking what a great project for me a male grassnake and a female San Francisco.......

only kidding only kidding

[guidofatherof5]

I don't know this guy. Never heard of him before.

Run Forest, run.