Taxonomic changes: T. elegans

[Loren]

Yeh I saw awhile ago, that they were going to do away with terrestris, but they haven't said now what subspecies it is. Guess it'll just end up being a erthyristic vagrans or something????

I didnt know any of this. I would suppose that t.e. terrestris(coast) garters would be considered t. e. elegans (mountain garter), rather than t.e. vagrans(wandering), as the range of vagrans and t.e. terrestris dont touch. So maybe a erythristic, or red phase, elegans??

Kind of depends which book or website you go by, I guess. I still use the 2003 peterson field guide(Stebbins) as my main authority, along with Californiaherps.com. Call me outdated, but its easier than trying to keep up with what they try to change from week to week just so somebody can have his name on a published report.

[GarterGuy]

Call me outdated, but its easier than trying to keep up with what they try to change from week to week just so somebody can have his name on a published report.

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

[Stefan-A]

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

Is it something that somebody is working towards?

[KITKAT]

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

That will be bad for me.

Ohio law requires a license and really anal book-keeping if you keep sirtalis, but does not apply this to the non-native subspecies. So if sirtalis subspecies are rolled back into the species, I will have to pay about $50 a year, keep the stupid hand-written accounting of each snake and where it went, and have a visit every once in awhile from the "nice wildlife officer" who will stand there in my house and moan about how I am endangering garter species everywhere because I keep a handful of CBB.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Just wait 'til they break up sirtalis! I have a feeling it's going to happen. We'll end up with more species and less subspecies.

Perhaps, but the other possibility (which relates to the terrestris departure) is that there may be less subspecies and only one species (with unsupported races)!

Some geneticists are speciating (breaking up subspecies into individual species statuses) garters, while others counter with a result that aims to lump all subspecies into one species. Who's right? If you want to know , become a genetecist! 'Tis the only way to solve this. Unfortunately there are too many self-righteous PhD's out there.

[Stefan-A]

Some geneticists are speciating (breaking up subspecies into individual species statuses) garters, while others counter with a result that aims to lump all subspecies into one species. Who's right? If you want to know , become a genetecist! 'Tis the only way to solve this. Unfortunately there are too many self-righteous PhD's out there.

In my humble opinion, they're both wrong. People have a tendency to try to sort everything into nice little drawers, but does anything at all suggest that it can be done with the natural world? Take the concept of a species, for example. The simple elementary school definition of a species includes that they can't produce fertile offspring with other species. Unfortunately that seems to apply better to genera than to species in a lot of cases.

With all the problems describing the relationships between species and the different methods of determining them, a simple binomial or trinomial name just seems too clean-cut. There are too many exceptions to the rules.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

And I am of the mindset that garters may be constantly re-writing their DNA by constantly intergrading and possibly "re-inventing" via hybridization or at least partial hybridization. Yes Stefan.... The sky's the limit with so many of our beloved serpents!